Carol says her bit
Hello, hello, and welcome!
I'm Carol, one of the two Christians referred to. I've been a Christian for as long as I can remember and fully believe that the Bible is true and infallible. However, this does *not* mean I am unwilling to read through arguments against Christianity and suchlike. It is because I believe that it is completely true that I don't mind questioning it; I believe that as it is true it will stand up to questioning.
An important point here is that whilst I believe the Bible is infallible, I know that it is not always easy to interpret and that there are some differences of interpretation.
For example, some people believe that it is wrong to have tattoos, because your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and they feel that it would be defacing the body. I do not believe that, though I wouldn't get a tattoo anyway. But I believe that for them it would be wrong, because to do something that you sincerely believe to be wrong is not right.
I do not expect every Christian to believe *precisely* the same thing as me. I do expect people who call themselves Christians to believe in the fundamentals of the faith - detailed below.
The best way to give a brief summary of my beliefs is probably to quote the Apostles' Creed, which was a widely used historical creed; although it hasn't been used in any churches I've been part of it does cover the main points.
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
*NB the word "catholic" (with a *small* c) is used in its original meaning of "universal", rather than "Roman Catholic".
I believe that the only way to God/heaven is through Christ. I do *not* believe that this means you should indiscriminately bombard everyone you know with informative leaflets about Christianity, or invite them to every single event at your church (if you are inviting someone to 1: the youth club 2: the women's coffee morning 3: the men's breakfast 4: the over-50s dinner 5: the quiz night 6: the alternative-to-halloween celebration Fun for All the Family 7: the marriage enrichment course etc etc ... somehow, that doesn't seem right).
I believe that a Christian should always be living out their beliefs to the best of their ability, and asking God to help them become more like Christ, and that this is a more powerful witness than words alone. I also believe that a Christian should be ready to a) explain and give reasons for their faith to the best of their knowledge and b) say "I'm not sure" or "I don't know" when appropriate and go and ask someone more experienced. If you are asked a question about your faith which you don't know the answer to, for goodness' sake don't blag it or say "well, the Bible's right anyway!" in a defensive tone; it's bad form.
I think I'll stop there**.
**a prize for anyone who recognises this quotation and can tell me which famous man said it and when.
posted by Jingle Bella at 7:01 pm
13 Insightful insults:
Well, I googled the quote, but no prize for me I guess. It's familiar, but can't place it.
I'll wait for the debate to start before I outline my fundamental questions regarding Christianity. They are kinda big ones so I'll wait until we're in the swing of it.
I will, however, say that I think in general the Christian philosophy is a good one - help others, don't judge people, etc. It's only when people start picking and choosing that things go wrong.
Lucie
Carol said, "An important point here is that whilst I believe the Bible is infallible, I know that it is not always easy to interpret and that there are some differences of interpretation."
Surely these two beliefs are contradictory. If something is ambiguous then it can fail to convey its meaning correctly, in which case it is fallible; imperfect; not always true.
Carol said, "It is because I believe that it is completely true that I don't mind questioning it"
Why not just question everything regardless of any preconceptions you may have? You seem to be implying that you would not dare to question the Bible if you feared that it were not completely true.
The first one I'll give you there, Mark, but I think you're reading into the second one way too much. What Carol meant (please forgive me Carol for speaking for you while you are all foreign) I think is more a reference to the way some Christians REFUSE to question the Bible.
She was just saying that she encourages questioning as it's healthy, and she wouldn't believe in it completely if you didn't question it. Not that she would be afraid to question it if she did think it was fallible.
Lucie
Carol said, "It is because I believe that it is completely true that I don't mind questioning it"
I see... If Lucie is correct then I wonder why Carol wrote that. Her willingness to question the Bible would not be caused by her belief that it is true.
Lying in her introductory post... Tsk tsk tsk...
Carol, when you get back, the FIRST thing I expect you to do is tell us where that quote is from. It keeps me up at night.
Lucie
*laughs* I'm sorry to admit that actually ... I slightly misquoted it. I was doing it in a rush, right before having to go ... it's actually "I think I'll stop here".
My comment didn't mean that if I thought it wasn't true I wouldn't question it. *wonders how to explain this properly*.
I believe that there could be a weak-minded person such that if they half-believed the Bible was fallible but were afraid of this belief, then they wouldn't want to question it, but rather cling to their ill-conceived and ill-maintained belief. I am pointing out that I am not such a person.
Also, with the interpretations thing, what I mean is that:
1) some truth is relative. The basics are not - they are absolute, e.g. lying is always wrong. However, some things are individual - for instance, my grandmother does not shop on a Sunday because it is part of her way of honouring the Sabbath and spending time with God. As she believes this is what is right for her to do, I think it would be wrong for her to shop on a Sunday (barring exceptional circumstances etc etc) - because she would be doing something which she believes is not right for her. However, that does not mean that all Christians should refrain from shopping on Sundays.
Does that make sense?
2) People can misinterpret the Bible, and this does not make it untrue. People can take quotatations out of context etc etc, and the fact that when used out of context they are not true does not mean that they are not true in general, merely that you should read them in context and apply appropriately.
I also agree with Lucie that when people start picking and choosing, then Christianity goes all wrong. This can happen at both extremes, in my opinion.
Go to the judgement-and-hellfire extreme and you become a self-righteous horrible so-and-so who spends all their time condemning people (hypocritically, since to be a Christian you must know that you're a sinner too).
Go to the love-goodness-and-mercy extreme, and you get a wishy-washy concept of God who becomes a bit like Santa, and is a bit too ... well, soft. Tenderness, gentleness and mercy, absolutely - but nobody wants to believe in a great big marshmallow and anyway, if you think God's Someone who cushions you from all the hardships of life you're going to get that bubble burst pretty quickly.
Carol said, "but nobody wants to believe in a great big marshmallow".
=D
Loving that quote.
There's also the fact that, even if trying their best, people can be misguided. The vicar who counselled my mum to marry my dad even though she didn't love him is a prime example. She was pregnant, they'd met through the church, it seemed meant to be to him. He was wrong, but that's more a reflection on human nature than the religion itself.
And it took me a long, long time to learn that.
Lucie
Hey, I found the quote!
"Then, in 1994, mathematician Andrew Wiles brought together obscure and disparate mathematical strings to weave at last the solution to this enduring puzzle, completing the presentation of his proof with the words, "I think I'll stop here.""
See, this is what happens when I don't read Simon Singh...
What's the prize?
Lucie
Um ... it's a surprise. Actually, I will get something to you, it just depends when I next go shopping, okay? *grins*
Not a cookie? A metaphorical cookie typed with love and chocolatey bits? Oh...
Lucie
Carol said, "I believe that there could be a weak-minded person such that if they half-believed the Bible was fallible but were afraid of this belief, then they wouldn't want to question it, but rather cling to their ill-conceived and ill-maintained belief. I am pointing out that I am not such a person."
How do you or I know that you are not such a person? You could be weak-minded when it comes to thinking critically about the Bible, yet simultaneously skilled at convincing yourself that you are strong-minded. If you're not critical of your Biblical beliefs why would you be critical of your self-beliefs either?
Regarding point 1) of Carol's comment, I thought Christians were against moral relativism, not actively believing in it! And yet Carol appears to be telling me that if her grandmother believes that she will be condemned to a Christian Hell for shopping on a Sunday then she shall if she does so. And that if I believe that it would be wrong for me to go a day without killing someone then it would be right for me to be a serial killer. This is clearly absurd. Carol, you appear to have no concept of morality.
Regarding point 2), Carol, you appear to have missed the point of what I wrote. I know that people are fallible. I said that the Bible is fallible.
Compare it with an academic textbook for a moment. Textbooks should be written to be unambiguous. I realise there is the distinct possibility that some of the information contained within a textbook is wrong, but at least anyone can understand exactly what a well-written textbook is saying -- unless they a) lack sufficient prior knowledge or b) momentarily or permanently lack sufficient mental skill.
A well-written textbook is unambiguous. It is possible to read it all and then believe all it says.
But what about the Bible? It repeatedly contradicts itself, for a start. The ambiguity I mentioned lies in the uncertainty of which Biblical passages, if any, to believe. You can read the entire Bible but you can't possibly believe it all -- you can only fool yourself into believing that you do. No matter how much effort is put into praying and proofreading, the Bible can never be perfect.
I don't think the implication was that she'd go to hell for shopping on a Sunday, but more that it felt wrong to her, and thus she shouldn't have to do it.
Again, I have to point out that there is a difference between doing something you feel is right when it causes no harm, and doing something you feel is right when it infringes on the rights of others.
Lucie
Post a Comment
<< Home